Mark Lavenia

I think so, Mark Lavenia isn't the most famous person (I hope I don't hurt you bro!), but he made a name for hismself being the members in bands, such as Abhorrent Existence, Incubus and Equinox. Since he vanished from sight for a while, it was natural for me to discover him and making the interview with him. Thanks to myspace, succeeded!

Mark, do you still remember, how and when did you get in touch with metal? What did you find so exciting in this music?
My older cousin, Chris McGlinchy, introduced me to hard rock and metal. As kids (early 80s) our family used to get together on the weekends, and my sister, two cousins, and I would hang out and listen to music. Chris would always prepare a few tapes in advance. The bands that first took hold of me were the usual culprits: Sabbath, Zeppelin, Priest, Maiden. His compilations also incorporated various relatively non-mainstream metal bands (for the time) like Metallica, Mercyful Fate, Exodus, etc. I loved the driving energy and power of these bands. I still remember when he brought over the then-newly released Ride the Lightning; I was blown away. The surge I got from the intro riff of Fight Fire with Fire galvanized my preferences, and indeed, my identity, right then and there.
Did you start listening to immediately brutal stuffs or…? Were you into established, known outfits or rather into smaller ones?
It wasn’t until Pete Slate and I became friends that I became acquainted with the darker hues of metal. He introduced me to Slayer, Possessed, Celtic Frost, etc. I immediately loved the intensity and chunky grooves. Like Ride the Lightning before it, my first hearing of Reign in Blood was a game changer and, for me, completely recalibrated what it meant for a tune to be bad ass. Certainly we’d catch shows with Morbid Angel or Amon (now Deicide). However, bands like Kreator, Coroner, even Testament and Anthrax were fair game. Athiest or Obituary was just as likely to be in the tape deck as Destruction or Voivod. Pete was always more of an aficionado on the underground scene than I was. He would always have me check out this or that demo he just traded for; I can’t say that many the real obscure ones ever really stuck with me, though it was cool to hear the new sounds that were emerging.
Did you always prefer the underground scene compared to mainstream?
So, this is kind of a funny question. When we first listened to bands…say, like Malevolent Creation (’89 demo), I’d say we were steeped in the underground; however, I don’t think you can say that underground still accurately describes them. Digital music and the various Web platforms at our disposal have made terms like underground almost obsolete. Certainly, the ease and exponential rate with which file sharing takes place calls into question whether the number of albums sold is a valid proxy for a band’s fan base. How do you even determine if a band is underground or not (…the number of hits on their Website or views of their YouTube video)? The underground used to carry with it a kind of badge of honor; I’m not sure that it still has the same connotation or if it still makes sense to think in those terms. In the 80s, everything was different; it was all tape trading, low-budget fan zines, and hand-written communication. Hmm? Sorry…I think I went on a little bit of a tangent and veered from the point of that question.
So, yeah, we were witness to the birth pangs and formative throes of Tampa’s death metal scene. And that was cool. As I think many people can relate, it is cool as a kid to know about obscure bands that are not on many people’s radar; it’s as if you have special knowledge. Add to that that the given band is more brutal or macabre than they thought musically possible, and it is as if to say, I live in a world unbeknownced to you, and it is not for the faint of heart. In the sage words of Beavis, “The only thing better than getting chicks, is scaring them.” However, that is all pretty much kid stuff, and I resolved to not get stuck in that. Thus, I enjoyed hearing new bands, but had no particular disdain for a band just because they were or became well known (providing they held to the integrity of the music).
When did you start playing the bass and how did your choice fall on this instrument?
I started playing guitar at 12. I knew the singer for a local speed metal band; they wanted to replace their bass player, and they asked me if I could fill the slot. My dad had a bass; I bought an amp, and was in. I was 16 at the time. Right away, I liked the abuse that the bass strings could take and the ballsy, low frequencies that I could get out of the instrument. I was able to pour all of my energy into my playing, in a very visceral way—more so than I could on the guitar. However, with regard to my technique, I play the bass very much like a guitar. Although every metal band I’ve played with, I’ve played bass, I really don’t consider myself a bass player.
What were your influences to become bassist? Were you self taught or…?
When I think of what it means to be bass player, I think of guys like Geddy Lee, John Paul Jones, and Chris Squire. Probably Geezer Butler had the most influence on shaping my ideas of what the bass brings to a band. As I mentioned above, my first instrument was a guitar. My dad is a jazz guitarist, and he showed me how to play. My cousin, Chris, played guitar; and when we got together, he’d show me different rock/metal riffs & licks. When I picked up the bass, I just transferred what I knew about guitar to it. Thus, I truthfully never really took on the work of learning the unique art that the bass is due—and basically approached the bass as guttural guitar.
Pete Slate and you did a brief stint with Kam Lee, in a project called Abhorrent Existence, was it your very first experience as musician? Do you still remember how did you end up joining the band?
So, that speed metal band I mention above was the first band Pete and I were together in. It was called Blacke Rose (à la early Mercyful Fate). After a couple years, it was clear that Pete and I wanted to take the band in a direction that the other guys weren’t up for (and, we knew that the name had to go). The drummer stayed with us, but his heart was never really into it. Pete ran into Kam, told him about what we were trying to do; we all met, hit it off, and started writing new materials and rehearsing right away.
Was Massacre on hold at this point?
I’m pretty sure that Massacre was always in the back of Kam’s mind, but nothing was really happening with it when we first started jamming; however, I think shortly thereafter the stars were starting to align for Kam and Rick to get the band up and running again.
Was Kam Lee only the singer of the band or did he play the drums too, since he was drummer in the early Mantas/Death period?
Kam only sung. However, he would, on occasion, get behind the kit to convey what he had in mind when we were writing. Kam is very comfortable out front, and I don’t think, at that point, he was interested in performing as a drummer.
Have you ever recorded any materials with Abhorrent Existence? Have you ever played live shows too?
I believe that a couple of our rehearsal tapes got circulated. If I recollect, I’d say that our sound was a kind of death/thrash metal: something like a Dark Angel. We played one live show.
Why and when did Abhorrent Existence come to an end?
Pete, Kam, and I all got a long very well, but the re-emergence of Massacre that was concurrently taking place really required all of Kam’s energy. And thus, the momentum for the project just wasn’t there. We’d still all hang out from time to time, and sometimes speculate on piecing something back together, but nothing ever materials. (That is until Pete and Kam, under the name Kauldron, contributed to a 2002 Destruction tribute, with the song Bestial Invasion. It is tight and worth checking out.)
Then you joined Incubus, was it right after Abhorrent Existence's split or did you play some bands in between?
Yes, actually Pete and I both joined, at first. He was corresponding with them (while they were in Louisiana) and learned that they’d be coming to Tampa to audition musicians for a second guitar slot and bass. Spring of ’90, we went down (about a 2 hour drive from where we were in central FL), auditioned, joined, and started driving down every weekend for rehearsal. However, fatigue with the long drive and the sense that his creativity would be constrained, brought Pete to conclude that there was a less than ideal fit. Thus, after giving it a go, he respectfully declined their offer.
For myself, my wheels were out of commission. Thus, his quitting meant my quitting. I continued practicing the material, and told the guys that I was still on board, but needed to save up to get my car up and running. Around October, I did so, and began driving down there again each weekend. However, by that point, they had just gone in the studio and recorded Beyond (with Francis playing all the bass lines). As you might imagine, it was a disappointment for me that I couldn’t pull things together sooner, but…such is life.
Were you the first choice of Incubus being their bass player or did they audition more bassists as well?
I don’t think I ever got a straight story on this (I’m a little foggy), but, I believe that there was another bass player, also named Mark, that joined before Pete and I did. He apparently didn’t work out; not sure why. I learned this through a secondary source; so, it could be totally wrong. Aside from that, I don’t know.
Were you familiar with their first record „Serpent temptation"?
Pete introduced me to it when he learned that they were coming to FL to audition for a second guitar and a replacement for Scot.
As for „Beyond the unknown", in your opinion, did the guys develop a lot compared to the first record?
OK, I’ll answer this…but know, all the material was written before I joined. With regard to Beyond: I think it is a great album. I pop it in and listen to it on occasion still. In my opinion, it is one of the best albums of the genre. I also think that the guys evolved greatly since Serpent. For me, the quality in their writing is much more mature. For what Serpent is, it is great old-school thrash. In addition, I think Francis taking over vocals was a good move.
Are all the tracks on this album filled with fast vicious riffing and double bass lines without losing focus on song structures?
I think their song structure is one of their greatest strengths. Listen to Certain Accuracy: I think they go 20 or so unique riffs and breaks before cycling back to the main verse/chorus riffs for a second time. Rather than your typical verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-verse-chorus song structure, many of the songs on Beyond are written more in movements. On the Burial Ground is another one like that. Thus, yeah, it has fast vicious riffing, mixed in with a lot of solid chunky grooves, but, it is the flow and almost organic progression—where each preceding part gives rise to the part that follows—that makes Beyond the masterpiece that I think it is.
Do you agree with, that, most tracks consist of more different paces and riffs than the average death metal groups from that period, the group managed to make every change in pace or key sound pretty natural and this also obviously created a very dynamic and diverse old school album?
I couldn’t have said it better. That’s exactly right. I think they brought a level of intelligence to the writing that is seldom seen. I’m not sure what is meant by the “average” death metal group. There are a lot of bands that I think are hands down bad ass; and there are certainly throngs of others that play like mother fuckers, but just don’t have that hook. Thus, in my opinion, I’d put Incubus within the upper tiers of bands. I hear from fans; and for some of them, Beyond and Serpent are way at the top of their favorite albums of all time. Nevertheless, there is definitely a threshold of global recognition that separates Incubus from other better known bands. You can pick up any compendium of metal bands, and there are certain names that you can be confident will be listed (Morbid Angel, Napalm Death, etc.); however, it is hit or miss as to whether Incubus will be listed. I think that this has less to do with whether their music was just as good, as it has to do with other ancillary matters, such as productivity, image, and serendipity.
Would you say, that Incubus managed, this also goes for their previous effort, to create their own sound of sonic violence combined with a crushing dark atmosphere?
I think they definitely found a unique sound. In fact I’d go on to say that they have a way of continually reinventing themselves. Serpent was straight up old-school thrash. However, Beyond was clearly something different. It still had elements from the thrash era, yet, was arguably in the death camp. Listen to their (now Opprobrium) latest album, Mandatory Evac, and the guitar tone is very different and the riffing is far from a recycle of their earlier material. Thus, Fancis and Moyses approach their song writing as professionals and really try to craft something meaningful in their work. Their adherence to lyrics that are written with social consciousness, if not overt Christian premises, also gave the band a hue hard to peg.
Do you consider „Beyond the unknown" as an excellent album all the way through without any filler tracks?
I wouldn’t consider any of them to be fillers. They each and ebb and flow in different ways. For example, I found the main verse of Curse to be a bit poppy (kind of like the more thrashy riffs you might find on Serpent); however, I think the mid section (bridge & solos) of Curse is brilliant, and one of my favorite parts of the whole album. And the audience really responded to the way the pacing in it shifted to allow the bottom to drop out and then build back. Thus, from a gestalt perspective, everything worked together really well to create the intended effect. Moreover, there certainly are cool riffs throughout the album; however, it is really how the riffs are juxtaposed with one another that most makes it outstanding.
Does the excellent drumming style make this album stand out among all the other death/thrash bands?
The musicianship on both of them is exemplary. But, yeah, the drumming, in particular, is outstanding: Moyses had chops for sure. Some of his favorite drummers are guys like Neil Peart, Stewart Copeland, even Buddy Rich; thus, he brought a lot of non-metal techniques with him that augmented his creativity. Aside from that, he could blast and double bass with the best of them.
Is „Beyond the unknown" one of the true classic albums in death/thrash metal history?
I think so. I believe that it will stand the test of time.
What are/were your favorite tracks from the record?
Hmm…favorites??? Deceived Ones has a very cool groove that is a lot of fun to play. Curse always got the mosh pit going, and thus, the energy from the crowd made it an all time favorite of mine. The title track, Beyond the Unknown, always kicked my ass—technique-wise, and thus was always fun because of the challenge it posed to getting really tight. Burial Ground has to be right at the top: some of the rhythms and beats in that song have exactly the right hook. I’ll stop there before I list them all.
You did tour with Incubus, what do you recall of the shows with them? How did the tour or tours go?
We had only one tour for Beyond: Europe in spring of 1991. Since the label and the touring company were both German, Germany was sort of a home base, from which we spoked out into the rest of continental Europe. Disharmonic Orchestra opened for us (on occasion, there’d be a local band also be in the line-up). We had a great time, and all became fast friends. The audience also picked up on the fact that there was a lot of camaraderie among the troupe. I can only think of a couple instances where the audience was a bit sleepy; otherwise, we were very well received everywhere we went. Note: this was not long after the wall came down; correspondingly, the audiences in the former east were totally into it. We really had a blast.
How many shows were in the support of „Beyond the unknown" exactly?
We had 36 dates booked over a two month period. Another interesting thing about that point in time is that was when the civil war in Yugoslavia first broke out. Thus, we had shows down there that we had to cancel due to safety precautions. Although that sucked for many reasons, one irrefutable one is that, for those days, there’d be no money coming in, no food, or place to stay (because, it was customary for the venue to feed you and put you up). Thus, we holed up at Herwig’s (of DO) house in Austria and did some sightseeing: castles and shit…very cool! We also shot down to Spain, where we could live inexpensively, by sleeping on the beach, etc. Thus, there were some semi-roughing it moments, but, it was all a great experience.
What kind of experiences did you gain in Europe?
Man, I don’t even know where to begin with that. I grew musically, culturally, personally. It really was fantastic. Herwig and I really hit it off, and was cool just tooling around soaking up all that there was to learn about the people and places. Michael Trengert, of Nuclear Blast Records, toured with us for most of the dates. He was awesome: very supportive and super cool guy. Thus, I made some great friends and saw a lot of awesome places (beauty-wise, history-wise, etc.) All that said, nothing really compared to the fans: they are what made the trip all that it was. There really is nothing like that rush of knowing you are making that person’s night, and likely giving them a memory that they will stick with them for the rest of there life. I’ve heard from some of the people that came to our shows, and they’ll talk about how that show was a landmark moment in their life. It really just blows me away! And it is that experience that resounds when I think of the tour.
Did you get on well with the Howard brothers?
We got along great. Truth is, though, it was their band. That is not to say that I had no voice; when I had a good idea or meaningful perspective, they welcomed my input. Nevertheless, as brothers, there is going to be solidarity between them, simply by default. Add to that the irrefutable history that, they established the band, wrote and recorded all the music, and brokered all the deals to initiate the tour. Thus, I had no complaints; though, I always knew, had I stayed with them, I would never have 33% of the decision making real estate. Honestly, I wasn’t worried about it. They were running a tight ship, and I saw no reason to intervene. Thus, my role with the guys was not much more than hired musician. But, I’m not complaining. I got a lot out it, even without bonafide co-ownership.
Were the couple years with the guys a great experience for you? Did you feel that you made a strong contribution to the tour?
I wouldn’t replace it for the world. And yes, I did make a strong contribution to the tour. My performance was solid. And, I think I brought a calmness and professionalism that smoothed through a couple hairy instances that could have gone bad had they been allowed to escalate. Moreover, I think I had the right energy to make everything gel just so.
The period that I was with them was either spent rehearsing for the studio or rehearsing for the tour. As I mentioned above, I had transportation issues that precluded my involvement on the first effort. However, once resolved, we had time to get tight on all the material. We would rehearse nearly all of their songs, even ones we never even intended to perform on the road. We all agreed that I needed to know all the tunes, if nothing else, just on principle.
Did the Howard brothers want to start writing the third album after the tours? Were there some new riffs, drum parts or songs in mind at this point?
On occasion there was some new riffing and working out of parts for new material prior to the tour. However, 99% of our time was pretty much about the business of tightening up for the tour. And to be honest, much of that was for my benefit. I only had Saturday and Sunday with them; truthfully, you can really only go through the set in a single sitting so many times before mental and physical fatigue becomes prohibitive; and thus, before I’d know it, it would be Sunday evening and I’d have to bolt.
Why and when did you decide to quit the band? Did you part ways on a friendly term at the end?
When we returned, it was clear that they were ready for a bit of a hiatus. In addition, they were going back to Louisiana. I personally wasn’t up for the move. Furthermore, though I think they were happy with my contribution to the tour, I got the impression that my not remaining in the group was a mutual decision. I don’t think that it is any more accurate to say that I quit than it would be to say that they kicked me out, and vice versa. There was simply a tacit mutual understanding that our arrangement had come to a close. I love the guys and begrudge them nothing. They’ve given me every reason to believe that they reciprocate my sentiments. Sometimes you just know what’s right. I brought an important ingredient to the tour. But parting ways afterward was the right thing to do. I’m sure that I could see them tomorrow without having a moment of awkwardness, and pick up like 1991 was yesterday.
After Incubus, Pete Slate and you put together Equinox, how did you get together again? Does it mean that you didn't lose contact with each other after Abhorrent Existence's demise?
If you couldn’t tell already, Pete was and is one of my very best buds. So, he and I never lost contact. We currently talk infrequently, but the space doesn’t make us at all estranged. Anyway…after Incubus, Pete had met a drummer, Steve Spillers; they were talking about putting together a project that was in the black/death metal vein. Pete invited me in and I was totally into the idea. Although we all loved the vicious riffing and blazing beats of many of the bands of the time, we were all in agreement that something really old-school was what we were wanted to pour our energy into. Pete and Steve were much more familiar with the European black metal bands that they wanted to fashion the sound after, than I was. For me, my influence hailed from more fundamental roots—what I consider to be the pro-genesis to the entire scene: the title track off of Black Sabbath’s debut album. Moreover, we were all after the same construct, though were coming at it from slightly varied angles.
What was the line up of Equinox at this point?
After I agreed, we had a full line-up of instruments. We had jammed only a few times before Matt came on board with the vocals. He was a friend for years, very easy to work with, and an obvious pick. One thing we liked was that he could do the characteristic guttural vocals, but also do some of those black metal style screams. I think everyone was a good fit from the start.
Equinox began their journey during the last months of 1992 and have since gone on to an epic career as one of America1s elite underground Black/Death Metal, how do you explain this?
Elite, huh? Well, I’m glad to hear it, because I think we made some cool tunes. I think our daring to be slow—considering what many other bands were doing at the time—made for a fresh sound. Furthermore, I think we were able to capture a mood that was dark and eerie, without resorting to the low-hanging fruit of hateful, sick, and perverse themes. I know, many people probably think, ‘you say “sick and perverse” like it is a bad thing”’; LOL. Truth is, we love many bands that dwell in that realm; however, it just wasn’t the identity we wanted to convey. And for my part, it wasn’t a mentality that I wanted to purvey. I’m not sure if that helped us or hurt us. Nevertheless, I think our authenticity in that regard contributed to a recognizable identity.
In addition, what they’ve gone on to do since I left has sent the intensity of their song writing through the stratosphere. Although I really loved Steve’s drumming, the addition of Gabe to the line up had a transformative effect on the band: his technique gave them a sound that was ready for the world’s stage. Just to be clear, I personally like listening to Steve’s drumming just as well, and found it to be perfectly well suited for the sound we were going for in the early years of the band. However, Gabe’s highly technical playing and phenomenal chops gave them a sound that was less “underground,” if you will; and thus, was appealing to a broader circle of fans.
All that said, I think the secret ingredient to their success has been Pete’s unrelenting perseverance and commitment to the music. I am totally impressed with his ability to hang in there and keep plugging away month after month, year after year. Furthermore, his creative wellspring has not even remotely been depleted. Pete is the real deal.
Your first effort was the „Anthem to the moon" demo in 1993 can you give us details regarding on this tape?
I’m honestly coming up a little short on details. In fact, I’m not even assembling a mental picture of what the studio looked like. It was July 1993, and we were in a small Orlando studio. We recorded three tracks. Err…next question?
Did this tape really represent the goals of Equinox that you wanted to achieve?
I think so. It had the ancient, occultesque mood that we were going for, where the grooves and tones were firmly grounded, yet fully cognizant of the ethereal. We wanted to paint a picture in sound that contemplated the nexus between worlds, while using the kind of heavy riffing that gave it a gravity that was resonant and palpable. I think for many people of the time, the pace of many of our songs proved to be too slow; however, for us, it was spot on with what we wanted to do.
A year later you released your next demo called „Equinox", what can you tell us about it?
Actually we recorded it only four months later: November ’93. We recorded this time at the famed Morrisound Recording in Tampa, engineered by Tom himself. The function of this session was to record a better sounding demo, plus record Kiss’s The Oath, a song slated for a Kiss tribute album: Kiss of Death. Working with Tom was great, and we were generally happy with the recording.
How much promotion did you do for both demos? I mean, were they shopped around to attract labels interests? Through which channels did you spread them in the underground at all?
Admittedly, that was Pete’s thing and he could more adequately address that question. By that time, he was plugged in with an extensive network of contacts; consequently, they were disseminated thoroughly.
Interestingly, all of our early recordings, including tracks from these demos, have just been compiled and released through Grim Nocturnal Records (www.grimnocturnalrecords.com), titled, As the Moon Swallows the Sun. It also has some really rough sounding live tracks. In addition to The Oath, it has several other covers that were originally on different tribute albums: Sabbath’s Hole in the Sky, Slayer’s Haunting the Chapel, and Mercyful Fate’s Gypsy. These were all recorded after I left the band. The exception being Hole in the Sky, where Pete asked me to make a cameo appearance and play the acoustic guitar coda, Don’t Start (Too Late). It’s fun too, after 15 years to have some of this stuff released, and the assembly of all of these tracks was really well done.
How do you view, that the unique style of Equinox's music combining majestic interludes, epic melodies, and sheer brutality sets them light years apart from their fellow Floridian counterparts?
Wow! First “elite,” now “light years ahead”; that’s news to us! Going on the premise that that is even true, we did make a concerted effort to do something different than many of our local peers. I’m a D&D geek from way back, with a fascination for all things mythological and mystical; so, blending my love for heavy music with, as you say, “majestic interludes” and “epic melodies” was a natural fit for my interests and general sensibility. However, I think most credit goes to Pete and Steve. It was very clear to them, from the outset, the kind of motif that would come to typify the band. In addition, I think the unusually melodic solos that Pete used to complement the predominance of dark, brooding rhythms, gave our early songs a sound that was unique.
Did you play some live shows at this point?
We played several shows in the Orlando area.
Why and when did you leave the band? What were the reasons of your departure?
Around ’94, I let the guys know that my involvement in the band was going to have to be only tangential. What that amounted to, was availing myself to them to help transport the gear (as I was the one with the van) and to help out however they needed, such as, taking photos during gigs, etc. My reason for quitting was multifaceted. Primarily, I went back to college full-time, and knew that I wasn’t going to have the time and availability needed to really be there. My experience is that the band has to come first if it is to be a fruitful endeavor; and I wasn’t going to put the guys in a position where they had to work around someone who wasn’t going to make the band the utmost priority. In addition, I had some misgivings about whether my efforts were well placed.
I think discontent is an impetus for many people that choose heavy, dissonant music as their medium of expression; at least, I think that explains my psychology. And so, in many ways, the latent aggression in much of the music I most enjoyed playing, bestowed a sense of empowerment. I enjoyed that, and it gave me an edge against that which pronged my discontent. Correspondingly, I viewed the vicious riffing and dark tones of black/death/thrash metal to be largely cathartic. However, my experience and observations began to bring that into question. When we’d play gigs and hear from fans, I saw some things that affirmed my theory, but, I also began to see contradictory evidence. Hence, I began to think that, not only were my efforts making no contribution to the empowerment of the people that came to see us, but, worse yet, the possibility that I was contributing to a mentality that was actually debilitating to them. Thus, after much soul searching, I concluded that my efforts were bearing bitter fruit.
Does that mean that I think all those who continue to play said music also bear bitter fruit (or dare I say, are about the work of the devil)? No, certainly not. It just became saliently clear to me, that, for myself, my efforts were misplaced. Consequently, I turned to academia to help me identify my calling.
Does it mean that the studies played a more important role in your life than being a member of an underground band?
Yeah, I’d say so. Immediately thereafter, I finished my baccalaureate degree and was a teacher for nine years. Primarily, I worked with students that, in Florida’s system, were identified as Emotionally Handicapped. That amounts to students who, for reasons biological and/or environmental, have limited success in regular classroom settings. My personal experience was that school (K-12) was very unsatisfactory, and I have since been obsessed with the thought that it didn’t have to be that way: that there is a lot that we yet know about how best to reach and teach kids; and that a better informed educational system would better serve our youth. I returned to graduate school in 2006, to pursue my doctoral degree in educational leadership, with a specialization in quantitative research methods. If all goes according to plan that should be wrapped up by the end of 2010.
Did you follow their career after you quit them? Are you still in touch with Equinox's members by the way?
As I indicated previously, I leant a hand for a few years after quitting: helping transport gear, taking photos, and even recording on a track. However, it wasn’t long before my work consumed more and more of my time and energy, and thus, by necessity, became less and less involved. Pete and I are still great friends and stay in touch; though we haven’t actually been able to get together in quite some time.
If I'm correct you took part in Kauldron around 2000 with Kam Lee and Pete Slate again, which fell apart around 2001 due to the inability to find a stable drummer, does it mean, that you never recorded any stuff with this outfit? What can you tell us about this period?
Actually, I had no involvement in that. However, I think they captured a bad ass sound and would have probably enjoyed the opportunity to have. As I indicated above, that Destruction cover is fucking tight.
Did you keep an eye on what's going on in the underground scene? Are you still into aggressive, brutal music? What kind of materials do you listen to these days?
Truthfully, I am completely out of the loop; I don’t even know half the mainstream metal bands anymore. I picked up a Metal Maniac the other day and, aside form some the old-timers that are still doing it, I had no idea who most of the bands were. My musical preferences are all over the map depending on the purpose of the music at that moment: I’ll listen to everything from Bach to Black Sabbath; Miles Davis to Ministry; Gypsie Kings to King Crimson; Crosby, Stills , & Nash to Chemical Brothers. If I had to give my top five most listened to rock bands, it’d look something like Zeppelin, Sabbath, Floyd, Yes, Beatles (hardly underground stuff). Sometimes I do want something aggressive and driving, but seldom will I turn to a death metal band to deliver it; but rather, will fall back on one of the early heavy/thrash metal bands that first captivated me: hardly is my mood so intense that it isn’t something that Master of Puppets can’t cure.
How much did the whole underground scene change or develop compared to the mid/late '80s-early '90s?
I’m going to confess that I’m really not an authority on that. (You should ask Pete that question; he could probably write a book on the subject.) Aside from my general commentary above, on how the advent of various Web platforms has completely revolutionized what a band was capable of doing to publish and promote itself, I really don’t have any for-instances to discuss. By the mid ‘90s, I had only superficial interactions with what was going on in the underground.
Equinox released a material last year featuring all of their early demos, covers and stuffs, how much were you involved into the making of the CD? Does it satisfy the needs of the Equinox fans?
Yeah, that’s the CD I mentioned above, As the Moon Swallows the Sun. It was just released last October. I have some mixed feeling over it, because, as demos, they never were intended for professional publication; and had I had my druthers, I’d rather they were re-recorded and done right. Nevertheless, it is kind of cool to see them released, warts and all. I had no involvement in making it happen; Pete simply called me last summer and informed me of the project, and asked if I had any old pictures I could send him for the sleeve. I was, of course, fully supportive of his decisions; and had the utmost confidence that he would not be part of anything that wouldn’t be well done. That said, there were a few typos in the liner notes, but nothing that is the end of the world. Regarding the needs of the fans, I think they’ll like it; if for no other reason, just for nostalgia sake. Furthermore, much of early material was consistently slower than the stuff they started writing after I left. Thus, fans might enjoy hearing the sound that first epitomized the band’s direction. For myself, I enjoyed listening to those songs again for the first time in a decade and a half. I know that I’m a bit biased, but I think we had a cool sound going that any fan of the genre will like.
Incubus changed its name in 2000 to Opprobrium and they released a record titled "Discerning forces" and the follow up of that material came out last year, how much do you like those efforts? I think, they haven't anything to do with the classic Incubus sound...
For me, Discerning Forces has some very cool riffs on it. When I listen to that, I hear some things that are reminiscent of Beyond, but much of it is clearly reaching for something different. The latest release, Mandatory Evac, took a few listenings to before I got it. Francis’s guitar tone was very different; likewise for the drum production. It’s almost an old-school mix, but I can’t quite put my finger on it. The guitar tone has grown on me, and I think that there are some cool moments on it. Between the two, I think I prefer Discerning Forces because it still hails from that Beyond sound. For Mandatory Evac, I commend them for going for something different. One thing that they haven’t lost is that Francis still has a tremendous talent for writing awesome hooks, catchy turn arounds, and tasteful passages of bad ass shredding. I think that the writing on Beyond was phenomenal and will be hard to match up to. Thus, I think they are in the right direction: they are not running with the pack; instead, they are trying new sounds and riffing; and, thus, in my opinion, both Opprobrium albums are notable works.
Are you still in touch with the Equinox members and with the Howard brothers? Is still Pete Slate your best friend?
I’ve lost touch with the other guys from Equinox; though still consider them all dear friends. I’m sure if we bumped into each other we could pick back up where we left off without missing a beat. Regarding Pete: I think that I’ve made it perfectly clear throughout this interview the high regard with which I hold him and the great value I place on our friendship. He’s as much a brother as a friend. I regret that I have lost touch with the Francis and Moyses; I consider them great friends and have great memories of my time in Incubus.
Mark, thanks a lot for the interview, any closing words?
Lászó – I want to thank you for this interview. It is clear that you put a lot of thought into what you wanted to ask; and it was a pleasure for me to address your questions. I’m aware that my perspective might be a bit atypical, as compared to some of your other interviewees. Being an individual that basically removed himself from the scene, some of your readers might even wonder the value in this interview. Although I expect that there may be more than a few readers of that opinion, I do hope that, on the whole, your readership finds this interview to be interesting.
I consider myself very fortunate to have had the opportunity to write and perform with some of, what I consider to be, the best talent in the business: Francis, Moyses, Pete, Kam. Through these contacts, I was put in the enviable position to informally hang and bullshit with many of the other legends and leaders of the scene. The time and place in which I grew up was at the center of many developments in our genre. It’s neat to look back and say, I was there when… Correspondingly, though I didn’t stick with it, I carry the music and memories with me always.
Thank again for this opportunity.
Best, Mark

Massacre - Michael Borders

Massacre. What the hell do I need to introduce? Nothing. The name speaks for itself. Original member and former bassist Michael Borders answered my questions.

So Mike, in actual fact the very first Massacre formation was assembled as a cover band comprising singer Mark Brents, Allen West and JP Chartier on guitar bassist Scott Blackwood and drummer Bill Andrews, but both Mark Brents and Scott Blackwood would soon be dispensed with you took command of bass, is that correct? How did this line up get together exactly?
The "first" line up ,was , you are correct, a cover band. Bill Andrews had put together the line up. Definetly more of a thrash metal style (Mark Brents was borderline hair metal guy with an annoying high pitched voice) i actually saw them play a few shows around town before I joined. Bill had become annoyed with the direction the band was taking, and pulled the plug on the project as a way of losing Blackwood and Brents. Allen West and I had met a few times, and started to rehearse together with Greg Gall. One night I was having a party at my place, and Bill happened to be there. Allen took him to the side, we went to my garage and Bill heard me playing some riffs, and the next week we were practicing together. JP Chartier rejoined, as did Mark Brents for the time being, since we could not find a singer anywhere and we were wanting to play some shows. God he sucked. He was one of those assholes who "thought" he had talent, taking Operatic singing lessons, etc. Nothing worse than some idiot who doesn’t know his limitations.
What kind of covers did you play?
Covers? Standard early metal for the time. „Black Magic”, „Deathrider” by Anthrax, „Piranaha”, nothing special really.
What about your musical background prior to Massacre? If I'm correct, you were involved in Cyanide alongside with Allen West and Greg Gall…
Its hard to consider ANYONE from that era to have a “musical background”. Its not like any of the guys in those early bands took “formal lessons” let alone could actually read music. Really just a bunch of bedroom practicing metalheads who could convince their parents to buy them guitars. If you could play a complete song back then you pretty much had a shot at being in a band.
Have you ever recorded any material with Cyanide? How did the band sound like?
Allen and I recorded some songs, they became the songs on the first Massacre demo. Cyanide never played any show, never had a singer, we really only jammed for about 6 months.
As for yourself, how did you discover the brutal side of metal, such as Metallica, Slayer, Exodus, Dark Angel etc.? Were you always into brutal, aggressive materials or…?
I “discovered” the heavier bands pretty much the same way a young guy discovers masturbation, BOREDOM. I was bored with Judas Priest, Maiden, etc. and one day I picked up „Show no Mercy” and was like HOLY SHIT! Then I heard Motorhead, and Celtic Frost and it was all over. I went from wanting to play like Steve Harris and started scaring the shit out of my family with my practicing dark, distorted bass lines in my room all day.
Do you agree with, that Massacre were one of the earliest extreme death metal bands, acting as pioneers of a style that was a popular underground phenomenon long before gaining public attention and widespread success?
Its sounds pretty conceited to even think that, but looking back, going thru all the fanzines at the time, before we started pushing demo tapes, you obviously had Metallica, Raven, Slayer, and Possessed, etc. But the underground bands that were making a name for themselves were bands like Nasty Savage, Savatage, Medieval, Anvil, not exactly what you would consider “extreme metal”. When our first demo came out, with Kam’s vocal tracks, even with the stupid effects on piss poor recording, it was heavier than most of the tapes we had heard.
Building off the speed and complexity of thrash metal, death metal came to true prominence by the mid 1980s, what do you think about it?
Death Metal peaked early in my opinion, then lost its way. The first few years ,when it was primitive, angry, and much hungrier were interesting. Then a lot of bands, Massacre included (Promise?) wanted to be taken more seriously, maybe a new level of success, make a bit of cash, who knows, but all of a sudden production values increased( producers making more on a project than the band), a shred arms race ensued, where bands tried to be more technical than one another, trying to be more complex, and in the process, lost the art of a good heavy riff, the kind of riff that makes a young guy grind his teeth and bang his head. Overplaying became as clichéd as the Satanic Posers that filled the scene. There were lots of guys with serious chops, but they couldn’t write a good riff to save their ass.
Do you still remember how did the whole Florida death metal scene come into being? Were you familiar with the first generation of death metal, such as Mantas/Death, Hellwitch, R.A.V.A.G.E., Morbid Angel, Slaughter, Genocide/Repulsion, Master/Death Strike, Possessed, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost etc.?
All of those bands were in those great fanzines back then, I have to think, especially when I get nostalgic and break out those ancient cassette tapes, what would have happened to some of these bands if we had the internet back then?
How about the club scene in Florida at this point?
Almost non-existent. The local bands had to go to these club owners, especially the “all –ages” venues that didn’t serve booze and BEG them to let us put on a show, pretty much offering to cover all expenses, make no money in return, just to have a chance to play a show. Later on we hooked up with a promoter who set us up with some decent shows opening for more established bands when they came into town. I think we would make one hundred bucks total between all four of us for the night if we were lucky.
Is death metal typically characterized by the use of heavily distorted guitars, harsh vocals that are low-pitched and/or growled, morbid lyrics, exceptionally fast-paced rhythms and melodies, frequent blast beats on drums, and complex song structures with multiple tempo changes?
In my opinion, you can have ALL those qualities in a band, and NOT be a death metal band. Good death metal starts with aggression, hostility, anger,etc. Without that root, you’re just a punk with a distortion pedal and some pussy screaming into a microphone, no more real than a metal version of the Backstreet boys, following the trends of a producer and a hopefull fan base. I have heard so many allegedly heavy bands that have such a complete and total lack of “pissed off” in their veins, I’d rather listen to old school jazz.
Bands like Possessed and pioneer death metal bands such as Death, Massacre and Morbid Angel are considered prime influences in the genre, right?
A lot of second generation bands consider them / us to be, I’m not as arrogant as to go around bragging that Massacre is a prime influence on anyone else.
The formation debuted live with two back to back gigs, the first supported by Executioner (later Xecutioner, then Obituary) and second as openers to Morbid Angel, what do yo urecall of these particulary gigs?
The first gig with Xecutioner was chaos. No soundman, just plug in, set up a PA and play loud. Cool thing it really didn’t matter. The kids in the audience just wanted to hear something new and heavy. For most in the area, it was their first experience headbanging and moshing outside of their parents living room. The day of the show, the center we were playing in was being used to teach Karate classes to local kids. We all show up and start lugging our gear in, 8-9 long haired metal guys with guitars, the instructor got all pissed at us, but we were so jacked we didn’t care. The second night with Morbid Angel was this huge club with a massive pa, but it was the kind of place that normally hair metal bands played, and it served alcohol ,so no one under 18 could come in. Not a lot of people showed up, and since the soundman was used to normal bands, he turned the vocals up way high in the mix, which gave Mark Brents a chance to suck at a new level. He was out a few weeks later.
Following these shows was Kam Lee pulled in as new frontman in early 1985, who was in Mantas prior to Massacre, how did he get in the picture exactly? Was he the first choice of the band?
Kam was living in Brandon with his Uncle, and somehow Bill found out he was in town. I really had no idea who he was. Me and Bill drove over to pick him up, just so he could hang with us at practice. Well ,as usual ,Allen West was too fucked up, so he was a no-show. So me and Bill just started playing, just bass and drums. Kam grabbed the mic, we played “Piranha” and “Black Magic”, Kam tore into the vocals, and that was it. New singer. We knew we couldn’t deal with Mark Brents anymore, so it was a no-brainer.
Do you still remember how did Chuck end up moving to Canada to rehearse with Slaughter? How did it happen exactly?
All I knew was Chuck was up there, it was in the fanzines, and then he was gone.
This line up recorded the first demo featuring „Aggressive tyrant", „Mutilated" and „Death in hell", how was the demo recorded? Can you give us details regarding on the demo?
It was recorded as quickly and cheaply as possible. We had no money, we knew we had to nail each song in one take, with overdubs for the guitar solos and vocals. Sounded like shit, but we were excited to be on tape that wasn’t recorded on a boom box in a garage.
As an offshoot of the Death family tree Massacre naturally relied on precision riffing and Florida crunch, how do you explain this?
It was just “how” we sounded. We didn’t go out of our way to sound a particular way, but when the four of us got together, that is how it came out. Cheap equipment, lots of aggression, lots of practice.
Would you say, that Kam Lee also figures as a catalyst, cited as the originator of the death growling of vocal, which would provide an indelible identity stamp on the genre?
I’m sure Kam would (ha ha ha)
Like other early thrash/death metal bands from Florida, you spread your name by recording demo tapes that were sent around the world and traded with various contacts, do you still remember how many copies did you manage to sell from the first demo? Did it open some doors for the band?
We sold around 300 copies of the first demo, probably gave away even more. There were some guys that had fanzines for sole purpose of getting free shit. Really didn’t care. The more people who heard us, the happier we were. When we would get letters from people in Japan or South America, we thought that was just insane.
Did this tape make a name for you and introduced the band for the fans?
Funny but the tape that REALLY did that was a live tape from a show we played at Rock City in Tampa. It wasn’t the live demo we put out, just a sounboard tape that got traded like mad. It kicked ass, we were on fire and the tape just captured our raw sound perfectly.
At which point and why was JP Chartier exited? Is it true, that Trevor Peres was auditioned but not choosen?
JP Chartier was out before the first demo, and before Rick Rozz came on board. He was a good guy, but just not “heavy” if you know what I mean. His heart wasn’t into it. Trevor auditioned, but just didn’t seem to fit. I like Trevor, heck of a guy, but it just didn’t seem right.
How and when did Rick Rozz get in the band? Was he the most suitable person for this position?
Myself, Bill and Kam drove to Orlando to convince Rick to join us. He was living in a tiny little travel trailer with another fat guy. Smelled in there too. We wanted Allen out of the band. Lost our patience with his drug problems. Rick would bum rides to Tampa, stay at my pace for 3-4 days, and we would practice as much as we could, finally he moved out there and he and Kam moved in to a place, along with Terry Butler.
Prior to Massacre he was involved in both Mantas and Thatcher, wasn't he?
Yes.
How about his skills, since he became known of his tremolo picking solos? Did you consider him a talented guitarist?
He was no Guitar god, mater of fact he couldn’t really play the thing that well, BUT he excelled at the double picking, palm muting distorted riff style, and that is all we needed. I could care less if we had a guitar solo in a song anyway. They kind of bored me.
The second demo including „Chamber of ages", „Clangor of war", „From beyond", „Symbolic immortality" marked the introduction of Rick Rozz, did he have a big hand into the songwriting or was the material written when he had joined?
Those songs were written within a few weeks of Rick joining the band. He had a different style than Allen, and would all throw riffs and ideas at each other until we had something cool. Some riffs would be written by Rick or myself and would stay unaltered as a song, while others would be changed at another members suggestion.
How did the recording sessions go with this demo?
Two day process. Once again, we knew we had to blow the songs out in one take, couldn’t afford to re-record anything . Actually the song “Cryptic Realms” was supposed to be on the tape, but we ran out of time /money to finish it. The studio this time was actually in the home of an older musician. We sat up in different rooms, Kam in the bathroom ,Bill and I in a spare bedroom, Rick in the dining room, and we cut the songs.
What do you think about this tape after 23 years of its release? What would you tell us about the songs?
I’m actually glad we were low on cash. Rick was already talking about “better production values”, I love the raw, unpolished sound we had, lots of rumble, string noise, etc. Its what we sounded like. Looking back I wouldn’t change a thing.
How much did you develope compared to the first demo? I mean, did you become better musicians, was it a better representation of the band, did it really show your musical goals and stuff?
There really wasn’t that big a time span between the two demos. Less than a year. I think the first demo suffered from a bad mix, but more from our own inexperience in the studio, we were nervous, and our playing reflected it. The second tape we were more sure of ourselves, so I don’t think it was because of us growing as musicians, I think it was self confidence. And yes, it was a perfect representation of who we were and where we wanted to go at the time.
Were there any similarities or differences between both demos?
Main similarity was the time / money factor. My father asked me if we were playing so fast because we were on the clock. Other than that I think it sounds like a totally different band.
Is the first demo notably rawer-sounding than the second, and succeeds in being even more low-end-heavy than the „Chamber Of Ages" and the guitar sound is kinda weird?
Chalk that sound up to the combination of inexperience in the studio, a bit of nervousness, and Allen Wests full blown RAT distortion pedal tone. Funny how on the second demo, Rick didn't even use a guitar amp, that was his BC rich mockingbird plugged into my BOSS Overdrive pedal, and right into the mixing board.
Did this demo draw more fans attention to the band?
It did, but we never really “released “it as a demo for sale. It was to be used as a promotion tool to get label attention. Kam and I still mailed out a hundred or so copies to friends and anyone else who would listen.
How much promotion did you make for this demo? Was it also circulated in the tapetrading network?
Circulated yes, promoted, no.
The groups first live gig with Kam and Rick was recorded at the Streets Club in April 1986, how did the show go as a whole?
It wasn’t bad as far as “first shows” go, A few mistakes, bit of nerves, plus we had just kicked Allen West out a week before the show, so Rick was playing the songs a bit different. We got screwed by the club owner though, ended up giving away one of my bass guitars to cover the PA bill. Bastard.
The set included the Death song „Corpsegrinder", was it the only one Death song, that you played or…? Whose idea was it at all?
Kam and Ricks idea. I wasn’t too thrilled by it at the time, but after seeing the audience get into it, I was won over. Funny thing is my nephew, who played Football for the University of Notre Dame, and now the Seattle Seahawks has “corpsegrinder” in his Ipod as part of his pre-game ritual. Song is as old as he is.
Your next show was at the Metal Mania Festival in Tampa on the 25th May 1986, do you still remember this event? Can you tell us more about it?
Once again, club owner screwed us all. Forced us to start the show mid day, when it was supposed to start around seven p.m. Only about half the audience that should have been there made the show. It was ungodly hot, and I was puking between songs from the heat. Trey from Morbid Angel almost got nailed by a tent support during their set when the wind picked up.
Did it succeed in doing a great buzz around the band? Did you have a great amount of followers as for the underground scene? I mean, did the demos and your live shows help to expand the band's popularity in the underground?
Underground yes. Locally no. We were getting letters, tape orders, etc from around the world, and could barely get an audience in our own hometown.
Experimenting once again with a twin guitar sound the vacancy was briefly filled for a few shows by Robin Goodwin, at which point did he get in the band and what about his previously musical experiences? How long did he stay in the band? What went wrong with him?
Robby Godwin was a friend of Ricks, don’t know where he came from, he used to hang out at all the Nasty Savage gigs. Rick wanted a second guitarist so he could solo more. He was still in the band when I was booted. From what I heard Robby was kicked out for being a stoner and it interfering with his playing.
Have you ever recorded a material titled "Infestation of death"?
Infestation of Death was never recorded in the studio, it made it on the live demo, and it was on one of the hundreds of practice tapes that Kam or myself mailed out. The main riff was written by JP Chartier actually, we added a few more parts as time went on, song had a great riff in the middle that always seemed to get the pit moving. That was a bootleg release of the two demo tapes released by Moritaka Recors in Japan. Incorrectly gave Terry Butler credit for playing bass on the two tapes as well.
Rumors, that the group had signed to Cobra Records for an album given a title „From Beyond" proved premature, correct? Were there any labels interest inthe band at this point at all?
Yes and no. Were were in contact with a few small labels, but Rick would take any contact as “we’re getting signed” and run his mouth to everyone he could.
Massacre recorded two demos and one EP which was never released since David Vincent, the owner of Goreque Productions, joined Morbid Angel instead (he was also going to release an EP from Morbid Angel at the time), does it mean that he offered you a deal or…?
He never formally offered anyone a deal, us or Morbid Angel. I think Dave spread that rumour. Yea, he came down to Tampa and was talking to everyone about how he had connections with some big outfit to back his project, and when you’re a broke metal guy, you’ll listen to anyone that tells you he can help you make a living headbanging.
What about this EP? Is this the material, that became „Second coming" later on?
EP was probably Second Coming. I had nothing to do with that pile of shit.
Why and when did you leave the band? Were you involved in other outfits after you quit the band?
Once again, not like we were all best friends to begin with, but Rick and I started to butt heads, hard. All of a sudden “Massacre was HIS band” and he thought he was in charge of everything. I had done all the leg work, laid out all the recording cash, the money to print t shirts, done all the mail, the copying and sending of tapes and stuff to fans and fanzines, and now all of a sudden he was going to take over and do it his way. Had a big blow out at practice one night and that was it. I moved to South Florida after that, played in a few other bands, but nothing serious. Not much of a scene down there to say the least.
Did you follow what's going on in the death metal scene? Do you agree with, that in the late 1980s and early 1990s, death metal gained more media attention as popular record labels like Earache Records, Nuclear Blast and Roadrunner Records began to sign death metal bands at a rapid rate?
The labels that turned us down were signing bands that sounded like us left and right. A lot were better than we were, but a lot weren’t . I still follow whats going on as best I can, listen to whats new, whats old, anything that sounds heavy enough to fuel my morning workout. Funny how Stormtroopers of Death still finds its way into my headset every now and then. GREAT music to lift weights too.
In the late 80s death metal and extreme thrash were becoming increasingly popular, and bands were much more widespread than when Massacre was formed, what's your opinion about it?
Timing is everything. Plus the internet, and the creation of slicker, glossier more readily available magazines. I remember grabbing an issue of some trendy metal magazine at a gas station and fucking Deicide was in it. Right next to a story about the new Iron Maiden. Blew my mind. Hell yesterday I read where Morbid Angel are opening for Iron Maiden in Mexico in a few months. Holy Shit, who would have EVER thought that would happen 20 years ago. I give Trey a lot of credit for hanging in there all these years.
In 2006 German label IronPegasus released the „Aggressive tyrant" CD including the two demos and some live material, who came up with that excellent idea? How deeply were you involved into the making of the material?
Costas contacted me, ran the idea by me, and at the time I was aware of all the bootlegs on Ebay, so I told him “Hell, I’ll give you the tapes for free if you put out the real deal” I sent him the original copies of the demo tapes, a to of pictures, old flyers,etc. I think his project did us justice.
What do you think about, that stylistically, there isn’t much of a departure from that incendiary Mantas material, though in some senses Massacre were even rawer and more uncompromising?
2 thirds of Mantas was in Massacre, pretty self explanatory.
Was Massacre's focus always staunchly entrenched in the riffs, and this much is evident throughout the flesh-tearing, necrophiliac excursions presented here?
Riff was priority. If you couldn’t bang your head to it, it didn’t make the cut.
While this stuff is/was far more obvious on „From Beyond", the ubiquitous spectres of Celtic Frost and Hellhammer leer their gruesome heads throughout all of Massacre’s material, though this influence is certainly not as prominent as Xecutioner/Obituary, do you agree with it?
Allen West was into the slow, subtuned riff ala Celtic Frost. I honestly don’t think he could play that fast. Too stoned back then. It was a real shame he couldn’t control his habits more. Frost was definitely an influence, but we didn’t indulge in the ambient side of what they did.
There is the same stark simplicity, the same repudiation of pretension and complication, the same pummeling, bludgeoning emphasis on riffcraft, the riffs are propelled head on with one another, culminating in rabid, relentless and forcefully single-minded death metal of unspeakable intensity, how do you explain this?
Seriously, I don’t think that as a band we were talented enough to play anything much more complex at the time. Simple, heavy ,aggressive, that’s the way we liked it though. In my opinion, making a song too complex takes the heaviness out of it, saps its strength. And its not like we set out to keep the songs simple, just when we tried to add more parts, more complexities, etc, it just kind of ruined the idea behind the song.
„Death In Hell” is vintage first wave death metal, the Hellhammer and Sodom influences really coming to the fore and coalescing to make for pulsating, pus-filled primitiveness, right?
Low end heavy on the first demo was just bad recording and Allen Wests RAT distortion pedal, Probably enhanced by the humidity here in Central Florida.
Would you briefly sum up your thoughts about the further Massacre releases? „The second coming", „From beyond", „Inhuman condition" and „Promise". Second Coming?
Rick trying to be thrash. From Beyond / Inhuman Condition? All our old songs, re-recorded and over produced (keyboards in place of my bass line on Chamber of Ages”? What the fuck?”) Promise? Rick turning Goth, probably because another fat stripper left him for a thinner hair metal musician.
As for „From beyond", it is the way death metal was meant to be and this is what death metal is about, a monstrous, brutal slab of death metal…
Simple and Heavy , to each his/her own tastes, but this is what WE wanted to hear at the time.
What do you say, to it that they were performing at the Wacken Open Air last year and Kam plans to release a new Massacre record in 2010?
Beating a dead horse. I’ve heard the tapes, seen the videos, the intensity of the original line up is not there.
Did you never think about to rejoin the band? Did you regret leaving them back then?
When I first heard about Kams latest plan, I thought about tracking him down for old times sake, tell him hey, lets do one song together, see how it goes, but unless it just totally kicked ass, I ‘d hate myself.
Are you still in touch with Kam, Bill Andrews, Rick Rozz, Allen West or JP Chartier?
I haven’t seen / spoke to any of them in 20 years, except for JP ,who I did run into about 12 years ago. We had some good laughs.
What about Bill Andrews and Rick Rozz these days, since they seem to be vanished from sight for a long time?
Bill is in Japan, work for HotRockin importing old records. Rick is probably lodged in a booth at an all you can eat buffett in Orlando right now.
What kind of materials do you listen to these days? What are your actual faves? Do you still consider yourself an underground metal fan?
These days I listen to pretty much anything that I think is done really well, regardless of type of music. Rap obviously is 100% shit so that’s not an issue, I love some of the NYHC bands like Sick of it All and Madball, Tool, Slayer of course, but also old dead jazz guys like Charlie Mingus and Thelonious Monk. I don’t have actual favorites, but right now in my car player is Faith No More, EyeHateGod and Al Dimeola
How do you view, moch did the whole (death) metal scene change or develope compared to the golden '80s?
Went in a direction I don’t care for. Lost its way for the sake of recognition and lost it meaning in the process.
Your closing words…
Thanks for the interview, its always good to know that we still have fans out there somewhere, especially after 20 years.

Jaguar with Gary Pepperd

Those were the days! Definitely Britain played an important role in the heavy metal movement at the mid/late '70s and the bands that popped up back then had a great influence on the present bands. I think of important bands, such as Diamond Head, Blitzkrieg, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Motörhead, Def Leppard, or Saxon who had succeed in making a name for them selves and achieving commercial successes. There were a lot of bands, that didn't became as great as the aforementioned bands, but left their mark on the scene and were known on underground level, such as Sweet Savage, Grim Reaper, Witchfinder General or Jaguar. In this feature guitarist Gary Pepperd tells the story. It still isn't finished, there will come more details soon...

So Gary, do you still remember how and when was Jaguar formed and how did you hook up with each other? Was Jaguar the very first band for all of you or did you have earlier some musical experiences?
Jeff Cox and I formed the band late in 1979. We met at college and had been playing together for a while with other people, getting nowhere, so eventually we decided to get our own band together. We placed an advert for a drummer in our local newspaper, and from the advert Chris Lovell joined the band, he was only 16 years old at the time and was driven around by his mum!! It was his first band as I recall. Robert Reiss joined some months later.
Who came up with that metallic sounding name?
As usual we spent ages trying come up with a good name, as bands do, but couldn’t think of anything. One of us came up with Jaguar, we weren’t all that keen on it but went with it anyway as we couldn’t come up with anything better. We actually changed it but had to change it back because we entered a ‘battle of the bands’ competition as Jaguar and had to perform in the semi-finals.
The New Wave of British Heavy Metal was a spontaneous movement that ocurred between 1979 and 1983/4 in Britain, how did you feel seeing popping up bands, such as Sweet Savage, Blitzkrieg, Diamond Head, Girlschool, Grim Reaper etc. everywhere from England?
Well yes it was a movement I guess, it was very healthy with a ‘do it yourself’ mentality regarding both records and gigs.
Did you try to build up a friendship with the late '70s NWOBHM bands?
We never really knew any back then, there weren’t any from our part of England, the South West, we later became friendly though with Raven.
Do you think that the NWOBHM acts were perceptible from each other? I mean, all of the bands had an an own special character and they didn't copy each other…
Yes I guess they were all individual, some of us played fast, others more traditional sounding. This was of course before there was any speed, thrash or death metal!
Was a competition among the bands?
Not that I was aware of. I suppose there’s always some kind of competion among bands though.
More than 300 bands tried to make their names in that prolific scene, from whom only three ( Iron Maiden, Def Leppard and Saxon ) survived until our days, how do you view it?
I wouldn’t say only those three survived, there are loads of smaller bands who never split up and are still going today. There are an awful lot more who split up years ago but have since re-formed, like us. The three you mentioned are of course very good, had major record deals and achieved success, I’m sure this is why they survived.
Would you say, that it was hard to make a name for Jaguar back in the day, since a lot of bands started their carrer in the same time as you?
It’s always hard to make a name for yourself, we didn’t have the internet or e-mail back then. Having said that I think it’s just as hard nowadays, major record companies are no longer interested in rock bands, it’s gone back to the ‘do it yourself’ type of thing again.
Do you agree with, that New Wave of British Heavy Metal's music reacted against the artifice of contemporary pop, placing an emphasis on musicianship and amplification, the former trait setting it apart from punk rock?
Yes I guess so, I think it took traditional musicianship and married it with the energy of punk, in the early days of NWOBHM anyway. That’s how I saw it back in the early eighties when we first started out.
Before the NWOBHM movement was Punk on its peak, but in two years it vanished of sight, correct?
It may have vanished out of mainstream sight but it was still there bubbling away. In the early eighties a new breed of punk emerged in England with bands like GBH and The Anti-Nowhere League, it was still strong, and still is.
The NWOBHM thrived on volume, speed, and directness, with an idealised working class image, what's your opinion about it?
Hmm, I’m not sure about the ‘working class’ type of thing, we were what we were, but volume and speed yes definitely, in our case anyway, we loved to play as fast as possible, ha ha!!
NWOBHM as musically characterised by power chords, fast guitar solos and melodic, soaring vocals, with lyrical themes often drawing inspiration from mythology, fantasy fiction, and the occult, what's your opinion about it?
Agreed, not all NWOBHM bands are fast and ‘punkish’ there’s a whole bunch that are kind of doomy and Sabbath like, they tend to use the fantasy type of lyrics and themes. That’s OK though, there’s room for everybody.
Do you think, that Venom was the most extreme band at this point? Did they fit to the scene both musicwise and lyricswise?
Yes they were the most extreme band at that time. I suppose looking back they didn’t really fit the NWOBHM mould both visually and musically. I thought they were pretty original back then and of course they started the whole black metal thing.
Was the scene oversaturated or…?
I never thought of it that way. It just seemed like a healthy scene with bands popping up all over the place, I don’t think it was big enough to be oversaturated, unlike the way punk became for example.
Back to Jaguar, can you tell us about your rehearsals, about the first steps of Jaguar?
We were lucky that Chris Lovell had really understanding parents and they let us rehearse in the cellar of their house, four times a week for free, which of course was a massive help in getting the band started. We decided to concentrate on writing songs and coming up with song ideas for the first few months before even thinking about getting a singer in. We did that for three or four months or so until we had enough material to put some proper songs together ready for a singer to come in.
Did you start writing originals right from the start or were you jamming on covers?
We started writing our own songs straight away, which was always our intention, but as I recall we played two covers at our very early gigs, AC/DC ‘Sin City’ and Van Halen ‘You really got me’. Apart from those two the only other cover Jaguar played was The Move’s ‘California Man’.
At which point did you find your first singer Bob Reiss? What about his musical
background?
Probably around January 1980. We knew of Rob as we’d seen him around in various clubs in Bristol that we used go to. We heard he could sing a bit so we asked him to come along to a rehearsal. It went very well and he ended up joining the band. I remember there being great excitement that we had a full line up at last!
On March 22nd 1980 you recorded your first demo including „Feel the heat", „Battle cry" and „Piledriver", do you still remember how was it recorded? Was it your very first recordings experience?
Yes it was the first time in the studio for all of us, and was recorded very quickly. We simply set up the equipment played the songs through and that was it, all done and dusted in a couple of hours! Now of course we argue and fiddle about with drum or guitar sounds for hours on end, ha ha!!
It was recorded for a Battle of the Bands held by Melody Maker magazine and Jaguar ended up placed fourth in a field of 700, would you say, that it was your first success? What did it mean for you at all?
Yes I guess it was our first success. We sent the tape off to Melody Maker and forgot all about it, then a couple of months later out of the blue we received a letter to say we got through to the South West regional final. We weren’t really expecting it so we had to get ourselves ready for the final pretty quickly, we were very excited about doing it.
Would you say, that the fans liked a lot the demo and it was an excellent start for you?
People seemed to like it but the aim of it was really just to get gigs, and get the name in circulation with radio and club DJ’s. It served it’s purpose as it was difficult to get gigs without having a demo.
This placing put you in the South-West regional final, which marked your debut gig on May 2 1980, what do you recall of that particular one?
It was my first ‘proper’ gig and I was absolutely terrified, I remember thinking if I was going to be this nervous before every gig then I couldn’t do it. After the first couple of songs though the nerves disappeared and then it felt fantastic, after the gig we were buzzing!
What about your setlist and how did the crowd welcome the band?
We weren’t allowed to play for very long as I recall, we went down OK but it was a very mixed crowd, made up of the different bands’ supporters, none of whom were into metal as we were the only rock band playing. But it was all about impressing the judges, one of which said he thought we wanted to be the next Def Leppard, ha ha!!
Regular gigs in the Bristol/South-West areas followed, were you mainly headliner acts or rather opening ones for bigger names? Did these shows help the band getting new fans?
A mixture of our own gigs and supporting other bands. We were friends with the manager of The Granary Club in Bristol and he let us play there regularly, supporting and headlining which was a great help to us. We played all over the South West though, pubs and clubs, and some of the gigs were wild, venues like The Cellar Bar in Taunton were rocking.
A second demo was recorded on December 22 1980 featuring „Stormchild", „War machine", „Ain't no fantasy" and a new version of „Battle cry", can you give us details regarding on this tape?
We wanted a better quality demo and we wanted to record some newer songs we’d written, as it was nine months since we recorded the last one we decided to go into the studio again.
Did it sound closer to what you wanted to achieve with Jaguar?
It was a step forward I guess but still recorded very quickly with minimal production. I think we’re still trying to achieve the ‘perfect’ Jaguar sound!
All of these tracks plus „Feel the heat" and „Piledriver" were put together to form the Jaguar demo, which was advertised in Sounds and Kerrang, can you tell us more about it?
As we didn’t have any vinyl out at this point we decided to put the demo up for sale at gigs so people could have some music to take home if they wanted. That was how it started out but it kind of grew from the ads we put in Sounds and Kerrang. We were getting orders for the tape from Holland and Germany as well as England, which took us by total surprise. Then one day out of the blue two people knocked on Chris Lovell’s front door saying they were fans from Holland, they ended up staying a week and became our friends and organisers of our first gig in Holland! That tape really kick started things in Europe for us and allowed us to go over and play many times, something that we still do today.
Was the goal of this tape to attract some label interests and making a bigger name for the band?
Well yes, the intention was to improve the bands’ position. Better quality demo, new songs recorded, we were trying to take a step forward.
Is it correct, that this tape also got a lot of orders from Germany and in particular Holland and got the ball rolling for Jaguar in Europe?
Yes it did much to our surprise. As I’ve already mentioned we got off to a flying start in Europe allowing us to go over there and play some great gigs. We were pretty young at the time, Jeff Cox was the old man of the band at 21!
Was it a better representation of the band?
Better, but still only a couple of hours in the studio to record.
In 1981 you appeared on the Heavy Metal Heroes compilation (Heavy Metal Records, 1981), with „Stormchild", how did it happen exactly?
We were contacted by Paul Birch, who ran the label, and asked if we would be interested in putting a track on it. As we had no other vinyl coming out at the time we decided to do it and put ‘Stormchild’ on it.
Is it true, that your contribution was a newly recorded version of „Stormchild", recorded in one four-hour session on 8-track equipment? Didn't you think about to record a brandnew, exclusive track for this compilation?
It was an exclusive track for the album. Paul Birch arranged the recording session and to our disappointment we drove up to Birmingham one Saturday morning to find the ‘recording studio’ was in fact someone’s garage!! There wasn’t much we could do except do our best and go ahead with the recording in the couple of hours that were available to us. I think it turned out OK given the circumstances.
Which bands were still featured on it besides you?
I haven’t got the album cover to hand but I remember bands like Split Beaver, (great name!), were on there.
If I'm correct, you were on your way to a recording contract with Heavy Metal Records…
Yes I guess, just for a single though, we weren’t keen on committing to an album with the label at this stage.
Weren't other labels interested in the band?
To be honest at this point we weren’t really looking for a label, it was something we hadn’t yet started to do. Heavy Metal Records came to us so we didn’t have to look around. Thinking about it now though I don’t know why we weren’t looking for a deal.
The second week of November 1981 Jaguar released their debut single called „Back street woman/Chasing the dragon", was it the first fruit of the collaboration with Heavy Metal Records?
Yes after the HM Heroes compilation.
How do you recall the recording sessions of the single?
We decided to use Spaceward Studios in Cambridge, because Iron Maiden had recorded ‘The Soundhouse Tapes’ there, no other reason ha ha! Paul Birch booked us an eight hour session, although laughable we had to complete it in this time span. We drove up from Bristol in time to start the session mid afternoon, quickly set up the equipment and started blasting it out. As usual I remember it being an almighty rush to get it done in time but we managed it. We had a gig the next day in I think Nottingham so the studio owner kindly let us sleep on the floor as we couldn’t afford a hotel! I remember the next day on the drive to the gig one of the wheels of the van fell off and the van nearly rolled over!!
Is this single ranked among die hard headbangers as a classic for metal generations to come?
I don’t know about that, you’d have to ask the people that bought them.
This release also meant your first gig in Holland in late November 1981, so it was your first experience abroad, wasn't it? How did it go as a whole?
It went very well and was a real eye opener for us. Myself and Chris Lovell went over a week before the gig for a bit of a holiday. We stayed with the promoter/fan of the gig whose family were brilliant, they made us feel very welcome. We had a look around Holland for the week then travelled by train down to Amersfoort to meet up with the rest of the band for the show. I remember walking through the train and hearing the demo tape blasting out on peoples’ cassette players!!
What kind of crowd did you have in Holland compared to England?
We were taken by surprise really. At this point we were used to playing to smaller audiences in England, in pubs and clubs. This gig was the biggest we’d done, to a very enthusiastic crowd, which was fantastic, it was better than we could have hoped for. A couple of years ago someone sent me a CD of the gig, which I didn’t know even existed, it was interesting to hear it again.
Did it success for you to substantiate Jaguar's name in Europe?
I think it certainly started the ball rolling for us in Europe, people seemed to enjoy the show.
Ten weeks after the single's release the original 4.000 copies were sold out and there weren't any more pressed, have you ever counted on a such great result?
We didn’t really think about it at the time until the record company turned round and said they were all sold, obviously we were pretty pleased about it.
It was a very successful single, isn't it?
In a small way yes.
Although you seemed to be successful, you have sacked your singer Bob Reiss, what went wrong with him?
Now there’s a story. When Rob joined the band he was a really nice guy, funny, good company, hard working, but that all changed when he started going out with a particular girl. He became moody, rude, and difficult to deal with, obviously we couldn’t put up with that so he had to go. Looking back I’ve no idea why he changed in that way, there was no reason for it. It was a real shame as he was a great frontman.
He was replaced by Paul Merrell, how did he get in the picture exactly and was he the first choice of the band? What about his musical past?
We knew Paul as he was the on and off singer in ‘Stormtrooper’ who were a band based in Bristol. We used to bump into each other around the area so we knew what he could do and decided to ask him if he would be interested in joining Jaguar. We had a blast in the rehearsal room, it sounded great, so he joined. He released one single with Stormtrooper which has become a bit of a collectors item. Paul actually joined us just after leaving a band called ‘Hellrazer’ who he was living in London with.
How did you view Paul's range of vocals to Bob's one? Did you want to find a copy of Bob or rather a singer with a unique, original range of vocals?
Paul and Rob’s vocal styles were completely different, Rob had a more traditional metal style whereas Paul’s was more blues based. It was just co-incidence that it turned out that way but both styles fitted the band and there were no complaints.
If I'm correct Paul's first performance with Jaguar, was at London's famous Marquee Club in March of 1982 an opening show for The Rods, how did the show succeed? Were you happy with Pauls achievement?
Paul’s first show was actually in Uden in Holland five days after he joined the band in January 1982. We were worried how it was going to go as Paul didn’t really have enough time to rehearse properly for the show but we pulled it off, Paul was still reading lyrics as we walked onstage, ha ha!!
The British do not support Jaguar nearly as much as Europe did, especially Holland, where you've achieved your best level of success, what was the reason of it? Was Holland a kind of second home for you?
Yes it was our second home, and I still consider Holland that way. There’s just something about the country that I love. We’ve played in Germany regularly in recent years and that’s a great place to play too.
Not only you, but other bands, such as Satan, Mercyful Fate etc. were successful in Holland back in the day, correct?
Yes as far as I know.
You also did a promotional interview for Dutch Radio…
Yes we did, in Hilversum. This was the interview when Chris Lovell shouted ‘we’re gonna rock your clogs off’ on air and after that people kept shouting it at us all the time, it became a kind of catchphrase I guess. People even began waving clogs around at our gigs!!
Five days after Paul Merrel joined the band Dave Wood managing director of Neat Records, saw your gig at a Dutch Heavy Metal Festival and was so impressed that he offered the band a one-year recording contract, do you still remember this special moment? Were you happy about it?
We were happy about it because it was what we wanted. We saw Neat as the number one NWOBHM label and wanted to be on it, so to have Dave Wood sitting there asking us to join the label was a great feeling.
As for Neat Records, which bands did they have besides Venom? Were they the leading label considering the NWOBHM movement or…?
As I’ve just said we considered them to be number one as at that time they had Venom, Raven, The Tygers of Pan Tang and White Spirit among others. Of course a lot of those bands swiftly moved on to other labels.
Most of the bands of this era (early '80s) were signed to Neat Records, who has released volumes of NWOBHM compilations in later years, how do you explain this?
I don’t know, perhaps it’s the label trying to make money, or maybe they were supplying demand for NWOBHM material, this has continued with Sanctuary Records since they bought Neat. I will say though that Sanctuary’s NWOBHM stuff is pretty good, very thorough.
In one scheduled studio session Jaguar recorded three songs, what were the titles of these tunes and what have we to know about the recording sessions?
The session took place in April 1982 at Impulse Studios in Newcastle and we recorded three songs, ‘Axe Crazy’, ‘War Machine’ and ‘Dirty Tricks’. The session was intended to be for our first single for Neat plus a song for the ‘60 min plus’ compilation album. The songs were recorded pretty fast as usual, from memory I think we only had one day to do it in so we did what we could within the time frame. I think we chose the right songs to use, they were both live favourites, and the single ended up doing OK for us. Both songs are still popular now and we couldn’t do a show without playing them!
You appeared on the „60 Min. Plus" (Neat Records, 1982), with „Dirty Tricks", can you tell us more about this?
The compilation was a collaboration between Neat Records and an English music paper called Sounds. It was a cassette tape which was only available via mail order through the paper. We weren’t really involved in it too much but it helped us by getting the band’s name in a national music paper for a time.